envy_the_sinners | 004 ☓ anon text

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004 ☓ anon text

[Scar's been lying low in Olivine ever since the hurricane, and he's starting to go a little stir-crazy. Being left bored with his thoughts can only end in one thing. Anon questions.]

In my time here, I have come to find that there are a great many "worlds" that are home to people who wouldn't be considered human, but experience the same depth of thought and range of emotion.

[Even he can make that conclusion, now.]

In that case, what is humanity? A measure of physical traits? A state of mind? Something into which one must be born?

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I'd argue it has more to do with genetics and state of being than anything... but I'd argue sapience is more important than "humanity." For worlds where humans are presumed to be the only sapient species, it's convenient, but not necessarily accurate for those where they are not.

But then is sapience a result of humanity, or is it the other way around? Or are the two even connected at all?

{This is a heck of a thing to find when first checking the network. But, it's very interesting, and Nanao spends a bit of time thinking about it before replying.}

In all that I have seen, humanity has been defined by how one acts towards other beings. Then again, I have fought... creatures who were once human, but lost that status. Some try to regain a measure of their former standings, but none truly manage it.

[Creatures who were once human? Well, Scar has more experience than he would like, with those.]

How did they lose their humanity?

[Because... Uh, yeah, this is hitting pretty close to what prompted him to post this to begin with.]

{OH BOY. Scar, you're going to love this.}

When they died - if they had been a murderer, rapist, an unrepentent criminal - their soul was transmuted into what we called a Hollow. To be a Hollow is to have lost your heart - your humanity - utterly.

They are driven by this lack of humanity to consume other souls in order to try and reinstate it. It is impossible for them to succeed, but to not do so - for them - is suicide.

Or so we have learned, over millennia of fighting and cleansing them.

Why does it matter what humanity is? Thinking that emotions are exclusive to humans vastly underestimates most life that exists.

Just because a person isn't human doesn't mean that he doesn't know about those things humans take for granted. People are people. When they are born, they seek out others no matter what you want to call their species.

Calling a concept of self "humanity" is more egotistical than anything else.

Edited 2014-08-04 01:24 (UTC)

[Oh look, it's a question that Envy's struggled with himself, and still is.]

Who really knows? It's a big deal to be human where I'm from, but other places it's like just another species. People who change into humans here don't seem to lose or gain anything as far as personality or emotions.

Maybe it's not something so special after all. It could be that the only reason humans are set apart in some places is there's nothing else there that are people.

Edited 2014-08-04 01:16 (UTC)

I wouldn't necessarily say they're connected, given that there are worlds where entirely different species have achieved sapience and have intelligence and reasoning capabilities even though it would seem completely ridiculous for them to do so.

For example, the world where the dominant sapient species are colorful horses. Admittedly, that's the... extreme end of things, but there's no way their sapience could have resulted from anything resembling "humanity."

[...That is so wrong on so many levels and he doesn't know what to say to any of this. Scar's answer comes a little bit later.]

You are saying that it is your job to fight these human remnants?

[Okay, Hollows, but whatever. This is just freaky. Souls that deserve it are brought back with their humanity stripped away?]

Is this a simple truth of your universe? Or does someone DO this? Strip them of their humanity, I mean.

I suppose it would be easier to comprehend, experiencing the change for oneself.

[All he knows about going the other way is that it's incredibly painful.]

Then this all becomes an argument like any other that occurs between different groups of people. What "counts" as a human being. Humanity becomes a social tool.

Were you human back in your world, then?

That seems to be something that people in all worlds do no matter what. Dehumanize whatever enemy you're fighting, because if they're not people then they're not anything you have to feel bad about killing.

I'm from a place like that. Lots of places I've been to don't have humans, but they are people.

Maybe that's a better word for it than something like human or humanity. What really matters is what's in someone's heart or soul.

{That sure is an ominous pause. During it, she keeps checking her 'gear every so often - the rules that bind her world can seem cruel to others (humans), but it's all she's known for a very long time.}

To prevent them from hurting others and to cleanse them, yes.

It is a core part of our world - when a soul dies, if it was an unrepentant person, it degenerates into a Hollow. If they were not, they remain a Plus, and passed onto Soul Society without difficulty.

Hollows can be cleansed of their sins, and their humanity gifted back to them - but it is not a guarenteed process.

{She's going to try to avoid mentioning the facts that there are multiple dimensions layered over the Living World, because that's probably not going to help.}

[Colorful... horses? That's a thing? ~~Science has gone too far.~~]

I would find that fact difficult to accept at all, if I had not spent such a span of time in this would already. I can agree with you, that intelligence has no true, unbreakable connection with humanity. But then what is humanity, to you?

I think that 'humanity' can be defined in two different ways. 'Humanity' as a biological classification, and 'humanity' as a concept. There's the flesh and meat of it, and the collection of ideals and emotions and experiences. The two aren't mutually exclusive, I don't think. One is a term for a species of beings and applies only to a human being, the other can be ascribed to anything that shares the same emotions and base morality. But it begs the question: is it species-centric, for 'humanity' to be the default that need be adopted?

Did you not read what I wrote? I said that these so-called non-human people experience the same depth of emotion as humans. Of course people are people, but what I am seeking to find is what makes a person human. You have come with the assumption that I am referring to humanity as a state of superiority. You aren't human, are you?

But the concept of humanity is what is important, to some. They possess emotions and thoughts, perhaps even a soul. But they, for whatever reason, are not considered to be human. Are you saying that the concept of humanity itself is flawed?

It might be. You gotta ask if by 'human' you mean like race or by just 'acting' like a human because that's all you can compare with.

I was. That is something different. Dehumanization for the sake of prejudice. I am talking about a person who is biologically different from a human in the way a dog is different from a cat, not different in race or faith. A person with a completely different physical form, or is capable of things a human could not accomplish. But this person is still that. A person.

Then in this line of thought, humanity as a concept can exist only in a place where biological humans are considered to be the sole pinnacle of moral reasoning. Are you referring to "adopting" humanity in the biological sense, or as a moral concept?

[Sorry, Scar. Let him get off this supreme butthurt.]

I'm not very good with philosophy.

[No shit.]

It's a signifier of species. Nothing more.

Humans do a good enough job trying to shove whomever is considered the enemy out of the label of humanity as it is. What a sorry lot people like that are.

[Sorry, was there a question there because he didn't notice it.]

That is the snag. Humanity as a race or a species is a different thing from humanity as described by a person's actions. I have met and known non-humans who have higher moral standards than humans.

If they're not a human, but they are a person...then that's it, isn't it?

Does it really matter that they were never human?

[No really he's sort of legitimately asking.]

And even then, should it? Morality is a fluid concept, not laws set in stone. Take two people and give them a series of hypothetical moral puzzles, and they'll likely give different answers. More simply that the ideas and attributes generally associated with the concept of 'humanity' aren't exclusive to biological humans. So why should it be 'humanity' that's the defining term? Were humankind the first to feel? I don't think so. But I suppose that's part of the first point. The debate only applies when 'humanity' is being considered some moral pinnacle.

No, you're clearly more of the type who prefers to look at the tribulations of humans from afar and call them lower than yourself.

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004 ☓ anon text

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anon text forever;

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we can probably assume anon text forever?

yes!

voice;

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anon 5ever and ever, I'm assuming

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Yup!

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