004 ☓ anon text

[envy_the_sinners]

[Scar's been lying low in Olivine ever since the hurricane, and he's starting to go a little stir-crazy. Being left bored with his thoughts can only end in one thing. Anon questions.]

In my time here, I have come to find that there are a great many "worlds" that are home to people who wouldn't be considered human, but experience the same depth of thought and range of emotion.

[Even he can make that conclusion, now.]

In that case, what is humanity? A measure of physical traits? A state of mind? Something into which one must be born?

Comments

[enjoymyatelier]

I'd argue it has more to do with genetics and state of being than anything... but I'd argue sapience is more important than "humanity." For worlds where humans are presumed to be the only sapient species, it's convenient, but not necessarily accurate for those where they are not.

[envy_the_sinners]

But then is sapience a result of humanity, or is it the other way around? Or are the two even connected at all?

[enjoymyatelier]

I wouldn't necessarily say they're connected, given that there are worlds where entirely different species have achieved sapience and have intelligence and reasoning capabilities even though it would seem completely ridiculous for them to do so.

For example, the world where the dominant sapient species are colorful horses. Admittedly, that's the... extreme end of things, but there's no way their sapience could have resulted from anything resembling "humanity."

{text}

[bookslap]

{This is a heck of a thing to find when first checking the network. But, it's very interesting, and Nanao spends a bit of time thinking about it before replying.}

In all that I have seen, humanity has been defined by how one acts towards other beings. Then again, I have fought... creatures who were once human, but lost that status. Some try to regain a measure of their former standings, but none truly manage it.

[envy_the_sinners]

[Creatures who were once human? Well, Scar has more experience than he would like, with those.]

How did they lose their humanity?

[Because... Uh, yeah, this is hitting pretty close to what prompted him to post this to begin with.]

[bookslap]

{OH BOY. Scar, you're going to love this.}

When they died - if they had been a murderer, rapist, an unrepentent criminal - their soul was transmuted into what we called a Hollow. To be a Hollow is to have lost your heart - your humanity - utterly.

They are driven by this lack of humanity to consume other souls in order to try and reinstate it. It is impossible for them to succeed, but to not do so - for them - is suicide.

Or so we have learned, over millennia of fighting and cleansing them.

anon text forever;

[ossifragant]

Why does it matter what humanity is? Thinking that emotions are exclusive to humans vastly underestimates most life that exists.

Just because a person isn't human doesn't mean that he doesn't know about those things humans take for granted. People are people. When they are born, they seek out others no matter what you want to call their species.

Calling a concept of self "humanity" is more egotistical than anything else.

[envy_the_sinners]

Did you not read what I wrote? I said that these so-called non-human people experience the same depth of emotion as humans. Of course people are people, but what I am seeking to find is what makes a person human. You have come with the assumption that I am referring to humanity as a state of superiority.

You aren't human, are you?

[ossifragant]

[Sorry, Scar. Let him get off this supreme butthurt.]

I'm not very good with philosophy.

[No shit.]

It's a signifier of species. Nothing more.

Humans do a good enough job trying to shove whomever is considered the enemy out of the label of humanity as it is. What a sorry lot people like that are.

[Sorry, was there a question there because he didn't notice it.]

[text | anon]

[exeggutorhead]

[Oh look, it's a question that Envy's struggled with himself, and still is.]

Who really knows? It's a big deal to be human where I'm from, but other places it's like just another species. People who change into humans here don't seem to lose or gain anything as far as personality or emotions.

Maybe it's not something so special after all. It could be that the only reason humans are set apart in some places is there's nothing else there that are people.

we can probably assume anon text forever?

[envy_the_sinners]

I suppose it would be easier to comprehend, experiencing the change for oneself.

[All he knows about going the other way is that it's incredibly painful.]

Then this all becomes an argument like any other that occurs between different groups of people. What "counts" as a human being. Humanity becomes a social tool.

voice;

[heartdive]

I'm from a place like that. Lots of places I've been to don't have humans, but they are people.

Maybe that's a better word for it than something like human or humanity. What really matters is what's in someone's heart or soul.

anon text

[envy_the_sinners]

But the concept of humanity is what is important, to some. They possess emotions and thoughts, perhaps even a soul. But they, for whatever reason, are not considered to be human. Are you saying that the concept of humanity itself is flawed?

anon text

[a_sin_for_him]

I think that 'humanity' can be defined in two different ways.

'Humanity' as a biological classification, and 'humanity' as a concept. There's the flesh and meat of it, and the collection of ideals and emotions and experiences. The two aren't mutually exclusive, I don't think. One is a term for a species of beings and applies only to a human being, the other can be ascribed to anything that shares the same emotions and base morality.

But it begs the question: is it species-centric, for 'humanity' to be the default that need be adopted?

anon 5ever and ever, I'm assuming

[envy_the_sinners]

Then in this line of thought, humanity as a concept can exist only in a place where biological humans are considered to be the sole pinnacle of moral reasoning.

Are you referring to "adopting" humanity in the biological sense, or as a moral concept?

[Anon Text]

[foolishwren]

Honestly at this point, in this place, 'humanity's kind of a flawed word.

There's things out there that are just as sentient as humans, but aren't humans. But at the same time, talking about 'humanity' and excluding those people feels wrong.

[Anon Text]

[envy_the_sinners]

Then does that mean that humanity is truly nothing more than a physical state of being? A list of traits?

[rarestcandy]

boooo

who cares? why's everyone gotta focus so much on what people ARE or AREN'T instead of just getting to know who they're talking to?

[envy_the_sinners]

Because in some places, it is an important distinction.

text;

[angerpoints]

Why the hell wouldn't someone who isn't human experience the same thoughts and feelings as a human would?

The only difference between a human and a non-human is that one's got human blood and the other doesn't. Anything else, like what their favorite food is or what kind of trashy TV they watch or whether they're an asshole or not, depends on who they are, not what they are. Anyone who thinks otherwise doesn't have a freaking clue what they're talking about.

[... yeah, Yusuke's got Strong Feelings about this. Obviously.]

[envy_the_sinners]

You have missed the point. I clearly said that these non-humans experience the same depth of feeling and thought as humans. This is not about that.

What I am trying to find is what the actual difference may be, whether it is a purely physical one or not. What actually makes a human, if anything at all.

[anonymous text]

[tearsofademon]

You know, it's been a while since I've thought about that, but I've heard a lot of conflicting opinions over the years.

[anonymous text]

[envy_the_sinners]

Of course they conflict, there is nothing more personal than the state of ones being.

[islandshore]

Maybe there's nothing special about it.

Might be because I've made friends with a former pony, but I think the fact that there are worlds out there without humans at all proves that the idea of humanity's kinda... short-sighted, I guess? But I guess it can't be helped when some of us come from worlds where humans really are the top dogs.

You also gotta think about the connotations. Humanity tends to bleed over into being... well, humane. And someone's considered a monster or animal if they step back from good morals. In most worlds, language is a human construct, and it shows.

But even here, you kinda have to set those ideas aside. Even the Pokémon are pretty smart.

[envy_the_sinners]

I have been thinking about that, how the Pokémon are not like animals. They are almost an existence unto themselves; not person but not animal.

Yours conclusion seems to be the general consensus among the others who are trapped here. I wonder how different the answers would be, if we had only all just arrived here.